Thảo luận Thành viên:À la caisse
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Wiktionary tiếng Việt đến nay đã có 237.885 mục từ, đó là kết quả đóng góp quý báu của rất nhiều thành viên trong Wiktionary, mà mọi người đều bắt đầu như bạn. Bạn đã khởi đầu rất tốt và mong rằng bạn sẽ mang đến những đóng góp có giá trị cho quyển từ điển mở này.
Những chỉ dẫn có ích: các câu thường hỏi, cách viết mục từ mới, soạn thảo mục từ, và những hướng dẫn khác.
Yes, definitely. Some singers may speak with one accent and sing with another, depending on the genre and time period. It seems like the pop music my parents listened in their youth was sung in a northern accent mostly. But I don't think there's nearly as much stigma associated with the southern accent in today's society. – Nguyễn Xuân Minh (thảo luận, đóng góp) 05:37, ngày 17 tháng 4 năm 2013 (UTC)
- Well ong and ông supposedly are pronounce differently but most people would pronounce them the same and most people don't really care really. Only the Vietnamese linguists care and know how to differentiate those little things.Trongphu (thảo luận) 11:32, ngày 18 tháng 4 năm 2013 (UTC)
For which dialect? For the ô in ông or không, northern Vietnamese makes no distinction between [ow] and [əw]. One is just more relaxed; the other more careful or emphatic. (Không! is very likely to use [ow]; thưa ông more likely to use [əw].) Likewise, the English "long o" is often broadly transcribed as /oʊ/, rather than /əʊ/. – Nguyễn Xuân Minh (thảo luận, đóng góp) 07:07, ngày 19 tháng 4 năm 2013 (UTC)
Sandbox and test cases[sửa]
Thanks for reviewing Mô đun:ViePron/dialects so thoroughly. Although I don't entirely agree with the approach you've taken (as I've explained), maybe you're right; we'll see if anyone complains.
Unfortunately, we can't keep making such frequent changes to Mô đun:ViePron and Mô đun:ViePron/dialects, as you did today (and as I've done in the past). Those modules are used on tens of thousands of pages, and every edit puts pressure on the job queue servers. I've protected those modules and copied them to Mô đun:ViePron/sandbox and Mô đun:ViePron/dialects/sandbox, where you can experiment as much as you want. Periodically, I'll synchronize the official versions with the sandboxes.
Meanwhile, to ensure that our experiments don't break anything, I've started a set of automatic test cases (view results). Anytime you tweak the behavior of either module, please add some test cases to Mô đun:ViePron/sandbox/testcases that illustrate what should and shouldn't be affected by your changes.
Please add a test case to Mô đun:ViePron/sandbox/testcases. Let's use that as our bug tracker instead of my talk page. It's too easy for me to lose track of problems on my talk page. – Nguyễn Xuân Minh (thảo luận, đóng góp) 22:42, ngày 21 tháng 4 năm 2013 (UTC)
The way corruptions are formed would make for a fascinating linguistic study. I don't know about this particular example, but foreign words are typically borrowed by people who don't necessarily know how to pronounce the source language well, and their goal is a memorable, easily pronouncable word that fits in with the rest of the Vietnamese sentence. "Ô-liu" sounds like a native Vietnamese word, while "ô-líp" sounds like a Vietnamese person trying to pronounce a foreign word. For better or worse, the more "corrupted" variety becomes popular.
This way of thinking is deeply engrained. My father for years had an e-mail address containing the English name "zoomtown". It was always difficult for him to spell it out over the phone to English speakers. Even though he speaks a mix of northern and southern Vietnamese, and can easily sing in northern Vietnamese, I simply couldn't get him to say /ziː/ instead of /jiː/ or /ʒiː/.
Perhaps a simpler explanation is that, whereas /iv/ and /ip/ sound similar enough to you and me (native speakers of Western languages), it might not sound similar to a native Vietnamese speaker, since final /v/ is completely absent from that language. That's just my theory, but you may want to contact a linguist who specializes in Vietnamese to be sure. – Nguyễn Xuân Minh (thảo luận, đóng góp) 00:37, ngày 22 tháng 4 năm 2013 (UTC)
- More like "ki lâm may", I guess... – Nguyễn Xuân Minh (thảo luận, đóng góp) 00:52, ngày 22 tháng 4 năm 2013 (UTC)
FVDP says "cốctay", but "cốc tai" and "cốc-teo" are more common. (FVDP makes up a lot of borrowings; many of them should be changed.) Every borrowing is approximate. "Coóc" is not a very common Vietnamese word, but "cốc" is: it means "drinking glass", which is a happy coincidence. "Tai" and "tay" probably come from an exaggerated American English pronunciation. If an American English speaker says "*coóc-thè-lợ", a Vietnamese speaker is likely to hear "cốc-teo". But if the American has a drawl, they'll say "*coóc-thài-lợ" and the Vietnamese speaker may hear "cốc tai".
All speculation, of course!